Comments on: The First Oration against the Parser https://nickm.com/post/2010/06/the-first-oration-against-the-parser/ Nick Montfort Tue, 07 Jan 2014 15:36:48 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.8.2 By: Guest Blog Post: Simple IF Interfaces | Inky Path https://nickm.com/post/2010/06/the-first-oration-against-the-parser/comment-page-1/#comment-29590 Tue, 07 Jan 2014 15:36:48 +0000 http://nickm.com/post/?p=929#comment-29590 […] Short [twice], David Cornelson, Nick Montfort, and others have written about the command line/parser in traditional IF, and whether we can […]

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By: Simple IF Interfaces » Horace Torys - Home https://nickm.com/post/2010/06/the-first-oration-against-the-parser/comment-page-1/#comment-3395 Wed, 23 Jun 2010 05:13:56 +0000 http://nickm.com/post/?p=929#comment-3395 Simple IF Interfaces…

Recently Emily Short [twice], David Cornelson, Nick Montfort, and others have written about the command line/parser in traditional IF, and whether we can improve or eliminate it. Understandably, when ……

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By: Chris Piuma https://nickm.com/post/2010/06/the-first-oration-against-the-parser/comment-page-1/#comment-3355 Thu, 10 Jun 2010 15:34:21 +0000 http://nickm.com/post/?p=929#comment-3355 Emily’s proposal would create something like a different genre of IF, which wouldn’t necessarily be better or worse, but different.

Mostly I wanted to point out that I rather liked this phrase:

“a reasonably negotiated subset of a natural language”

It makes me think both of poetry and of second-language learning. If learning how to play traditional IF is like learning a second language, do I feel much sympathy for those who aren’t willing to investigate the half-hour or so of frustration that it takes to learn the basic outlines of the grammar so that they can participate in the conversation? Especially those who haven’t bothered to read the (one- or two-page) grammars beforehand? Well, no, not really, but I’m also not terribly bothered if they decide not to experience IF either.

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By: The Parser as a Symptom, not a Problem « The Textfyre Times https://nickm.com/post/2010/06/the-first-oration-against-the-parser/comment-page-1/#comment-3354 Thu, 10 Jun 2010 14:52:59 +0000 http://nickm.com/post/?p=929#comment-3354 […] Short started an interesting conversation about the parser and offered an interesting alternative. Nick Montfort commented about the subject and Emily’s blog post has a sizable number of responses. I highly recommend […]

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By: Emily Short https://nickm.com/post/2010/06/the-first-oration-against-the-parser/comment-page-1/#comment-3352 Thu, 10 Jun 2010 05:11:35 +0000 http://nickm.com/post/?p=929#comment-3352 You always have to learn something about how to use the interface to be able to control the computer program that uses it.

True. On the other hand, most interfaces are full of little hinty reminders about how to control them: buttons, drop-down menus, toolbars, radial menus, whatnot. IF offers the opportunity to review what nouns are available (sort of, if you accept that you’re not going to get a complete list and that there may be some unimplemented nouns in descriptions). There’s no guarantee of a refresher on verbs.

The only part of my desktop that behaves like IF in its opacity is the Terminal window.

It makes sense for a programmer to be able to determine an object’s methods, but the experience of IF for me is not mainly about programming; instead, it’s about directing a character through a world, often one that is strange. Using langauge, and specifically, a reasonably negotiated subset of a natural language like English, seems suitable for this.

What I suggest would still allow for the typing of standard commands; it would still continue the paradigm of commanding a character. It would just offer a bit more clarity about what that subset of natural language *is* — as though you were being allowed to say, hey, character, remind me what you know how to do with a door? Ah, right. LISTEN AT IT.

(This said: Ad Verbum is one of the few IF games I can think of that absolutely positively could not work at all, not even for some of the content, in the system I’m describing.)

I have to note in closing something that I find a bit amusing: As Inform 7 is taking a programming language for interactive fiction in a radically more natural-language direction, Short is arguing for an IF interface that is less like natural language.

Less ironic if you consider that the natural-language aspect of Inform 7 wasn’t my idea. I like it — as an expert user, I don’t struggle too much with the syntax, and I find some advantages in it — but I also acknowledge that it is unsuitable for many authors. If I7 were the only kind of language available to write IF in, I would also think we needed an alternative in that arena. Fortunately we’ve already got several.

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By: josh g. https://nickm.com/post/2010/06/the-first-oration-against-the-parser/comment-page-1/#comment-3351 Thu, 10 Jun 2010 01:40:24 +0000 http://nickm.com/post/?p=929#comment-3351 Short herself doesn’t seem particularly ready to abandon the parser either, but it wouldn’t be a fair analysis to ignore the possibility. Plus there’s the fact that the alternatives she’s discussing already have a history, eg. the lists of verbs and nouns in sidebars. And the shift from text-based parser to a clickable set of verbs and nouns is essentially what adventure games went through. (Which was a success-failure-success rollercoaster historically, I guess?)

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