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	<title>Comments on: The First Oration against the Parser</title>
	<atom:link href="http://nickm.com/post/2010/06/the-first-oration-against-the-parser/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://nickm.com/post/2010/06/the-first-oration-against-the-parser/</link>
	<description>Nick Montfort</description>
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		<title>By: Simple IF Interfaces » Horace Torys - Home</title>
		<link>http://nickm.com/post/2010/06/the-first-oration-against-the-parser/comment-page-1/#comment-3395</link>
		<dc:creator>Simple IF Interfaces » Horace Torys - Home</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jun 2010 05:13:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nickm.com/post/?p=929#comment-3395</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Simple IF Interfaces...&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Recently Emily Short [twice], David Cornelson, Nick Montfort, and others have written about the command line/parser in traditional IF, and whether we can improve or eliminate it. Understandably, when ......&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Simple IF Interfaces&#8230;</strong></p>

<p>Recently Emily Short [twice], David Cornelson, Nick Montfort, and others have written about the command line/parser in traditional IF, and whether we can improve or eliminate it. Understandably, when &#8230;&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Piuma</title>
		<link>http://nickm.com/post/2010/06/the-first-oration-against-the-parser/comment-page-1/#comment-3355</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Piuma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jun 2010 15:34:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nickm.com/post/?p=929#comment-3355</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Emily&#039;s proposal would create something like a different genre of IF, which wouldn&#039;t necessarily be better or worse, but different.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Mostly I wanted to point out that I rather liked this phrase:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&quot;a reasonably negotiated subset of a natural language&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;It makes me think both of poetry and of second-language learning. If learning how to play traditional IF is like learning a second language, do I feel much sympathy for those who aren&#039;t willing to investigate the half-hour or so of frustration that it takes to learn the basic outlines of the grammar so that they can participate in the conversation? Especially those who haven&#039;t bothered to read the (one- or two-page) grammars beforehand? Well, no, not really, but I&#039;m also not terribly bothered if they decide not to experience IF either.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Emily&#8217;s proposal would create something like a different genre of IF, which wouldn&#8217;t necessarily be better or worse, but different.</p>

<p>Mostly I wanted to point out that I rather liked this phrase:</p>

<p>&#8220;a reasonably negotiated subset of a natural language&#8221;</p>

<p>It makes me think both of poetry and of second-language learning. If learning how to play traditional IF is like learning a second language, do I feel much sympathy for those who aren&#8217;t willing to investigate the half-hour or so of frustration that it takes to learn the basic outlines of the grammar so that they can participate in the conversation? Especially those who haven&#8217;t bothered to read the (one- or two-page) grammars beforehand? Well, no, not really, but I&#8217;m also not terribly bothered if they decide not to experience IF either.</p>
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		<title>By: The Parser as a Symptom, not a Problem &#171; The Textfyre Times</title>
		<link>http://nickm.com/post/2010/06/the-first-oration-against-the-parser/comment-page-1/#comment-3354</link>
		<dc:creator>The Parser as a Symptom, not a Problem &#171; The Textfyre Times</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jun 2010 14:52:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nickm.com/post/?p=929#comment-3354</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;[...] Short started an interesting conversation about the parser and offered an interesting alternative. Nick Montfort commented about the subject and Emily&#8217;s blog post has a sizable number of responses. I highly recommend [...]&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Short started an interesting conversation about the parser and offered an interesting alternative. Nick Montfort commented about the subject and Emily&#8217;s blog post has a sizable number of responses. I highly recommend [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Emily Short</title>
		<link>http://nickm.com/post/2010/06/the-first-oration-against-the-parser/comment-page-1/#comment-3352</link>
		<dc:creator>Emily Short</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jun 2010 05:11:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nickm.com/post/?p=929#comment-3352</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;You always have to learn something about how to use the interface to be able to control the computer program that uses it.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;True. On the other hand, most interfaces are full of little hinty reminders about how to control them: buttons, drop-down menus, toolbars, radial menus, whatnot. IF offers the opportunity to review what nouns are available (sort of, if you accept that you&#039;re not going to get a complete list and that there may be some unimplemented nouns in descriptions). There&#039;s no guarantee of a refresher on verbs.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The only part of my desktop that behaves like IF in its opacity is the Terminal window.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;It makes sense for a programmer to be able to determine an object’s methods, but the experience of IF for me is not mainly about programming; instead, it’s about directing a character through a world, often one that is strange. Using langauge, and specifically, a reasonably negotiated subset of a natural language like English, seems suitable for this.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;What I suggest would still allow for the typing of standard commands; it would still continue the paradigm of commanding a character. It would just offer a bit more clarity about what that subset of natural language &lt;em&gt;is&lt;/em&gt; -- as though you were being allowed to say, hey, character, remind me what you know how to do with a door? Ah, right. LISTEN AT IT.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;(This said: &lt;em&gt;Ad Verbum&lt;/em&gt; is one of the few IF games I can think of that absolutely positively could not work at all, not even for some of the content, in the system I&#039;m describing.)&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;I have to note in closing something that I find a bit amusing: As Inform 7 is taking a programming language for interactive fiction in a radically more natural-language direction, Short is arguing for an IF interface that is less like natural language.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Less ironic if you consider that the natural-language aspect of Inform 7 wasn&#039;t my idea. I like it -- as an expert user, I don&#039;t struggle too much with the syntax, and I find some advantages in it -- but I also acknowledge that it is unsuitable for many authors. If I7 were the only kind of language available to write IF in, I would also think we needed an alternative in that arena. Fortunately we&#039;ve already got several.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>You always have to learn something about how to use the interface to be able to control the computer program that uses it.</em></p>

<p>True. On the other hand, most interfaces are full of little hinty reminders about how to control them: buttons, drop-down menus, toolbars, radial menus, whatnot. IF offers the opportunity to review what nouns are available (sort of, if you accept that you&#8217;re not going to get a complete list and that there may be some unimplemented nouns in descriptions). There&#8217;s no guarantee of a refresher on verbs.</p>

<p>The only part of my desktop that behaves like IF in its opacity is the Terminal window.</p>

<p><em>It makes sense for a programmer to be able to determine an object’s methods, but the experience of IF for me is not mainly about programming; instead, it’s about directing a character through a world, often one that is strange. Using langauge, and specifically, a reasonably negotiated subset of a natural language like English, seems suitable for this.</em></p>

<p>What I suggest would still allow for the typing of standard commands; it would still continue the paradigm of commanding a character. It would just offer a bit more clarity about what that subset of natural language <em>is</em> &#8212; as though you were being allowed to say, hey, character, remind me what you know how to do with a door? Ah, right. LISTEN AT IT.</p>

<p>(This said: <em>Ad Verbum</em> is one of the few IF games I can think of that absolutely positively could not work at all, not even for some of the content, in the system I&#8217;m describing.)</p>

<p><em>I have to note in closing something that I find a bit amusing: As Inform 7 is taking a programming language for interactive fiction in a radically more natural-language direction, Short is arguing for an IF interface that is less like natural language.</em></p>

<p>Less ironic if you consider that the natural-language aspect of Inform 7 wasn&#8217;t my idea. I like it &#8212; as an expert user, I don&#8217;t struggle too much with the syntax, and I find some advantages in it &#8212; but I also acknowledge that it is unsuitable for many authors. If I7 were the only kind of language available to write IF in, I would also think we needed an alternative in that arena. Fortunately we&#8217;ve already got several.</p>
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		<title>By: josh g.</title>
		<link>http://nickm.com/post/2010/06/the-first-oration-against-the-parser/comment-page-1/#comment-3351</link>
		<dc:creator>josh g.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jun 2010 01:40:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nickm.com/post/?p=929#comment-3351</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Short herself doesn&#039;t seem particularly ready to abandon the parser either, but it wouldn&#039;t be a fair analysis to ignore the possibility.  Plus there&#039;s the fact that the alternatives she&#039;s discussing already have a history, eg. the lists of verbs and nouns in sidebars.  And the shift from text-based parser to a clickable set of verbs and nouns is essentially what adventure games went through.  (Which was a success-failure-success rollercoaster historically, I guess?)&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Short herself doesn&#8217;t seem particularly ready to abandon the parser either, but it wouldn&#8217;t be a fair analysis to ignore the possibility.  Plus there&#8217;s the fact that the alternatives she&#8217;s discussing already have a history, eg. the lists of verbs and nouns in sidebars.  And the shift from text-based parser to a clickable set of verbs and nouns is essentially what adventure games went through.  (Which was a success-failure-success rollercoaster historically, I guess?)</p>
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